Talk:Video game programmer

Not a copyvio

This is another article that is not a copyvio. If you feel inclined, please modify, though I doubt anyone will as few people ever modify articles I create (am I the only one interested in this stuff??). —Frecklefoot 19:27, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No. tempshill

Nice article. Incidentally, I removed the note about Carmack's millions because they are due to his being an owner of id, not due to his being a programmer at id. Well, you could argue that he's a millionaire because he's a game programmer, which is clearly true, but the context of the paragraph made it sound like he worked at a 9 to 5 job as a game programmer until he became a millionaire.

Yeah, you're right. I just really wanted to point out that there are millionaire game programmers out there. And id is so successful largely (solely?) due to him. :-) I guess I could've cited Sid Meier as well, but he also part-owned the companies that made him rich.

Thanks for the edits—I hate being the only one to edit articles I create. Now if I could just get someone to modify my Talisman board game articles... :-) —Frecklefoot 20:17, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it's so much due to interest as it is to the fact that your articles are pretty damn good from the start ;)

AI games

I'm thinking of removing "or role-playing games such as Neverwinter Nights" under Artificial Intelligence Programmer. Where's the intelligence in NWN?? Maybe someone knows a replacement?--euyyn 09:18, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've never played it, but wouldn't The Sims be an example of a game where AI is absolutely fundamental to the gameplay? -- Tlotoxl 09:57, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've never played NWN, but I heard that the AI was incredibly advanced in it. You could replace it with whatever CRPG you think is appropriate. I don't think The Sims has really advanced AI--the Sims pretty much wander around and do what they can to raise whatever stat is lowest. However, the latest SimCity games have very advanved AI. I think the best candidate, however, would be Civilization III, which is widely regarded as having some of the best game AI. It's AI is absolutely essential to gameplay. I'll make the change, discuss here if you disagree. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:05, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Civ 3 kicked my ass enough times. ;) I'm on board there! A.I. even in modern games is relatively pathetic compared to the graphics, so Civ 3 is probably about as good as it gets! Davedx

Missing image

The image this article really needs is an image of an actual game programmer... Fredrik | talk 21:33, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ew, who would want to see that?  ;-) I came across a few photos like this a few days ago. If I can dig them up again, I might scan one in and post it. Nice shot of Visual Studio, BTW. With Quake code yet! :-D — Frecklefoot | Talk 23:32, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Might not a picture of programmers at work inside a game studio be a better choice? --Tlotoxl

Well, no one says we can't have both. :-) To clarify, I have some photos of actual game programmers at work in a game development studio. Alas, the pictures are not very interesting: it's just some guys sitting in front of computer monitors typing. Someday I might be able to get a shot of a game programmer in front of an Xbox development setup, but I don't have one right now. The Visual Studio comment was me complimenting Fredrik for the image he added. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:14, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

We're hopefully getting a PS2 devkit where I work very soon, I'll grab a pic when we get it setup if you want? Davedx

---

Khan Parvez Sahebealam12 (talk) 05:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Sahebe alam12 Sahebealam12 (talk) 05:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Game programmer/programming

Vacuum moved this article to Game programming. I suspect that he (she?) saw the discussion on Featured article candidates that argued the article should be called Game programming and then rewritten to reflect the new emphasis. I countered that suggestion saying that the article is more about the occupation and, while it does discuss a bit about the ing, it is more about the job itself. I stated that the article does not address the following questions:

• How does one go about making a game?
• What is a game loop and how is it used?
• How does game programming differ from traditional programming?

Another user, Taxman, agreed with me. Until a consensus has been reached, please refrain from moving the page again. If you feel it should be moved to game programming, please discuss here first. Peace. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:27, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I went ahead and wrote an entirely new article for game programming which borrows no material from this article. I hope that pleases the ones who thought this article should be moved. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:30, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. Fredrik | talk 18:45, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am sure that chapter "Languages and tools" should go to game programming article. I don't see why it is here. Dinno 07:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Game programming already has a "Languages" section. I'll look at merging the content from "Languages and tools" over to there and then removing it from this article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay Programmer

I'm not quite sure about this phrase: 'Since this programmer is something of a "jack of all trades," he is usually paid the least out of all the programming staff and is usually easily replaced. In many cases, the workload of this programmer can be picked up by other members of the programming team, though the work he does is usually appreciated.' Can anyone in the industry back this up? Personally I think someone who can be a decent generalist in this industry is actually quite valuable. Without babbling about holistics and synergy... the 'gameplay programmer' is probably the one guy who will know the entire game inside out and appreciate how everything fits together. I know that's a role I more or less fill at my workplace, and I like to think I'm appreciated for it rather than seen as replacable :) -- Davedx

Well, I wrote that based on my experience in the game industry. :-) In my expereince a "Jack of all Trades" is the master of none. You can edit it based on your own experience. But these guys usually jump into different systems all over the code base, but never master any of them. If s/he does master a few, then he's not a jack of all trades anymore and, ergo, not easily replaced. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:38, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Ahh I see your point - fair enough ;) (Time to learn some hardcore graphics pipeline stuff quick! :P) Davedx

Input Programmer

'A first person shooter such as Quake may need a very complex and low latency input system'

Not quite sure what this sentence means, could it be clarified? Input is by definition low latency, and complex? Mouse and W, A, S, D doesn't seem too complex to me ;) -- Davedx

Input is not by definition low latency. If it were, DirectInput wouldn't exist. If you use DirectInput, you know there are two ways to set it up. One is "action mapping," which can get very complex, but is very powerful. The other way (forget what it is called), is fairly simple to implement, but not suitable for action games, such as FPS's. Without DirectInput, all you have is Windows messaging, which can be too slow for game execution. And if you've done any FPS input programming, you'd know that it can get pretty complex. If you have, it may not seem complex to you, but it is to the average programmer. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:38, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

David Braben

I note from an earlier edit that David Braben was removed from the list of notable game programmers. I am not sure how famous Elite was in the US but in Europe this game was huge and it is the father of all space trading games, groundbreaking for its time in that it was wireframe 3D too. David Braben is a very notable programmer, perhaps not today (although he still makes games) but his name is still very notorious. Freakchild 07:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed him again because he is not all the well-known. Though Elite was a popular game, it wasn't ground-breaking. Sundog had similar features and came out about the same time. Then for several years he didn't do anything all that notable. He can go on the list of programmers however, but he isn't that well-known among today's gamers or "old-school" gamers.

By the way, being "notorious" is usually a bad thing. ;-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It matters not whether he is a household name (although he is much closer to being so than a lot of the others on the list) or wether he is notable for "good" reasons. The fact remains that he is notable. The notirious legal wranglings between him and the co-creator of Elite are notable within the industry. The longievity of the Elite series (a new one out soon apparently) under Braben is notable. He is well known as one of the few developers still managing to maintain an independant studio and he is one of only two games developers (Peter Molyneux being the other) whos articles I have ever seen in the national press or on the BBC's website, or indeed who has been the subject of such mainstream press articles. He is perhaps a candidate for the most notable British games developer of the past 20 years. --JamesTheNumberless 14:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note on this. It's been a long time since I added Mr Braben back in and clearly he has been removed from the list since then. This person is pretty much the father of game development in the United Kingdom. Father is actually quite a good word to use, because there are many people running game top development companies today, even in the United States who would not have got into the field if it was not for Braben's game, Elite. He is known well amongst the game development community and anyone who argues against him not being known amongst old school gamers is clearly not familiar with that topic. Sorry but I also argue that Elite was also very much groundbreaking, not least in the area of rendering 3D wireframes at a high frame rate on a machine of limited performance bandwidth, something that was not repeated for several years afterward. Even the title Sundog used for comparison appears not to have the innovations that Elite had. There is probably no game that has been as groundbreaking or has had as much influence on the UK development scene than an other. The list of notable folk as it stands is largely made up of people who actually aren't well known internationally or otherwise, or are known more for different things other than game development so it is a pity that people continue to remove Mr Braben. I would agree with JamesTheNumberless (see above) in that he is a candidate for the most notable British game developer of the past 20 years. As such I fully believe this distinguished game developer who has made extraordinary contributions should be included in this list. I would like to hear from others about this point, as I believe he should be added back in. Freakchild 05:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've said my piece on this, but, even though I created this article, I'm not the "owner" of it. If two of you feel strongly about this—and no one else is willing to join the discussion here—go ahead and add him.

Looking at the list, it'd be good to see a one-line description of the programmers (i.e. why they are famous), like what is included in game designer. While I don't expect you to do it for every entry, please add it for Braben, so it can get the ball rolling for the other entries. But please remember to keep it short (e.g. David Braben: programmer of the Elite series of computer games). — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I put him in. Freakchild 20:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was David Braben removed? It seems that after people said that he should be on the list the only person arguing against it has gone and removed him...yet again. This is amounting to nothing short of page vandalism and I don't really care if you created the page or not. This is Wikipedia, it's not just your page it's for everyone. You may not know this person but that does not mean his in not notable. Please add him back in. Freakchild 20:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I see this is an old discussion, but I just wanted to add that in Denmark, Elite was HUGE.. The biggest thing before Doom, definately, and I have several old magazines with long features devoted to that game to back up my statement. And really, what other games of that era had full 3d (wireframe) graphics and movement, as well as algorithmic content, on that scale? Certainly not this "SunDog", which I hadn't even heard about before... Is it because it's not american? Should all the Amiga, BBC, and Sinclair games from the '80s to mid-'90s be ignored, just because the japanese/american consoles outlasted them? Why? 90.184.9.80 (talk) 18:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

This discussion is moot, but to recap: the list was removed because it was dtermined that it is very subjective. Game programmers who are/were popular in Europe were not so in North America and vice-versa. Coming up with a criteria for what denotes "notable" is nearly impossible. So the entire list was removed and a link was added to list of game programmers, where Braben, as well as all the others, now reside. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 15:38, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Ralph Baer, William Higinbotham

Went ahead and added these guys... but when I think about it, were they actual programmers, or were they just designers? Hmmm...

For that matter, it was on the History_of_computer_and_video_games, but there was a guy named A.S. Douglas as well, and it seems like he was an actual programmer... but no one really knows about him so maybe he shouldn't be on... 07:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed them:

1. Ralph Baer is an inventor, not a game programmer. Even if he were, he is not that well-known for computer games, though his invention was ground-breaking.
2. William Higinbotham created the first computer game, but he is not well-known. He did create one game, but he wasn't a game programmer, he was a physicist. Look at the lead-in for the section: the people on the list have to be household names among gamers. Higinbotham wasn't even that well-known in the early days of video games.

If you dispute my reasons, discuss it here first before putting them back in. Thanks. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This got me looking at the list for the first time, and things I noticed were: Lamothe appears to have academic credentials but not the kind of game programming track record the list expects. Miyamoto started as an artist and then a designer, not a programmer as I recall. Anne Westfall is an important programmer from early 1980's games, but is the only such person on a list that features more recent accomplishments. She feels right there, but there are others from that era whom her presence suggests should be added. A tough issue to handle: several of these programmers are considered special because of their design chops as delivered by their programming; absent the design skills their programming may not have ever impacted the industry. You could also argue that as double-threats they are even more special. What role should this play in the formation of the list? (Note that I'm much better at asking hard questions than answering them!) Coll7 22:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable or Famous

There seems to be a bit of a disagreement here about what constitutes a notable games developer. It would seem to me, by dictionary definition, that one does not have to be famous to be notable under every possible definition of the word. Might the ambiguity here be what is causing disagreement? One may be said to be "notable" on account of their worth, not their status, therefore lack of fame should not be an excluding factor from this list. If something is noteable or noteworthy it is not always widely noted. Looking at it from another perspective, perhaps the section aught to be named differently? Famous games developers? I'm not convinced that there are enough truly "famous" games developers to make this a worthwhile section. Additionally this may cause further problems as fame is demographically subjective. --JamesTheNumberless 14:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed Andre LaMothe from the notable game programmers list. If you search for him on MobyGames, you'll see he hasn't actually been credited on a single game. Also, most game industry professionals consider his writing to be the bottom of the barrel -- it's career suicide as an author to write a book in his series. Gremagor 20:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I saw he lacked MobyGames credits as well. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

2 User:JamesTheNumberless, many game programmers are famous to other game programmers, whether or not the public at large has heard of them. I've know of Danielle Bunten Berry, Sid Meier and John Carmack and most of the others in the list, while the public at large may only know of Meier, and those who have heard of him would be gamers. Most of the people in the list are noted and notable. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

seminal, pivotal

I added a number of game developers, Scott Adams, American McGee, Bill Crowther, Don Woods, and the Miller brothers. All except Crowther and Woods were fulltime game programmers and all were seminal figures in game development. I've not included programmers (including several colleagues) who weren't pivotal, which I think should be the key criteria for this list. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 08:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The developer of Bungie's Marathon Trilogy should be notable, if anyone can identifyer the game designer. Was that Chris Allen or someone else?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 08:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with most of the people you added, but I won't revert it. While the games they developed might be renowned, the programmers themselves aren't (and I fixed one link that pointed to the wrong person). The list was really just meant for really renowned game programmers, but it has grown to include game designers and programmers who are now forgotten. If it were really to be up to date and accurate, it would probably only include:

• John Carmack
• Richard Garriott
• Sid Meier
• Peter Molyneux (kind of iffy on this one)
• Will Wright

That list leaves off several of my personal favorites, but it'd be the only way to keep the list unbiased. But I'm not in the mood to fight about it. Just make sure the programmers you added are included on the List of video game industry people under Programming. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Freckle, I couldn't tell if you were referring to my comments in the section above or someone else. If you were addressing me, I'll be glad to respond. And thanks for pointing me to the list. (Most are already on the renown programmers list.)

regards, --UnicornTapestry (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Ack! I inserted my response in the wrong section (don't know how that happened). Yes, I was referring to the programmers you added. But like I said, I'm not really in the mood to fight about it. The list contains some of my personal favorites who, today, probably don't deserve to be on there. I don't think we'll ever pare it down to just the five or so I mentioned above. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I see the problem. I'm reaching back a lot farther historically. Scott Adams was a rock star gamer (albeit briefly) when no one else was around. If there hadn't been Crowther and Woods, there never would have been Adventure, and without Adventure, there never would have been a Zork, and without Zork, … The Miller brothers set a whole new level before Carmack changed the world, really fantastic ground-breaking work.

I confess to a momentary doubt about American McGee, but his work is beautiful and visionary.

I think we're in agreement. We both know a lot of people who played critical rôles in game development, but we agree to a need to focus on that handful who made the most difference.

kind regards, --UnicornTapestry (talk) 17:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

But was American McGee's work as a programmer visionary or as a designer? That's a big problem with the list: a lot of the people were programmers who became designers and it's their work as designers that's known and respected. I think Carmack is the only one who didn't turn into a designer, and his work as a programmer is still lauded. Everyone else on the list is known for their work as designers. Maybe we should just totally ditch the list. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

True. Carmack is noted for engine design and he (and Marathon's engineer) changed the 3-D world for us. Without them, life would be dull. McGee's done hi-level programming but he's singled out for aesthetics and game design.

I didn't care for Scott Adams's games and, truth be told, he was a thoroughly obnoxious character (laughing), but he capitalized on PC games when everyone else was learning where the START button was.

The Miller brothers (Cyan) cut-scene games were a bridge to Carmack's real-time gaming. Cyan's early games are still available today.

I probably wouldn't have thought of a couple of the names you mention, but yeah, I think they fit in. Like you suggest, Peter Molyneux is borderline, but why not? Hell, I'd like to see my name on that list, but that ain't gonna happen.

Bill (below) had a point about criteria. What would you like to see as key elements?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

I was just looking at this list and reading the discussions. I think what is needed is a clear inclusion criteria. What makes a game programmer notable? I propose we form some sort of consensus on how we define "notable" for this list. The method which requires the least original research and is least objective is by only adding programmers only when there's a reliable source directly stating that (s)he is a notable/significant/important programmer. If we do want to consider other factors there's criteria such as creation of video games, video games series, utilities or software used for video games, etc.. Once we've decided on a criteria it should be stated in the sentence at the start of the list section per WP:LIST. Any thoughts? Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Bill, you're right. I tried to address that above with the "seminal, pivotal", but you brought it out directly. All of us have 'favs', but that shouldn't count, only those who most made a difference. I'm mainly interested in a historical record.

We should focus on computer games and not utilities or series. Series implies more a commercial aspect to me, better addressed with separate articles. Thanks for focusing for us.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 17:27, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I haven't given this much thought, but first and foremost, the inclusion has to be based on their contributions as programmers. As I mentioned above, many of the people in the list started out as programmers, but then became designers or—historically—were programmers and designers at the same time. So, while everyone agrees that Sid Meier's Civilization was an important game, no one really cares about the programming. It was the design that made it notable. On the other hand, Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM and Quake were important for their technological innovations as well as their design (story, art, etc.). So, by that criteria, Carmack belongs on the list, Meier doesn't. And, the longer I think about it, I can't come up with any other programmer that really belongs on the list. The intro says that a few programmers have gained reknown among game developers and players alike. I can't think of any other game programmers that a player might know of that are known for their game programming, only for their contributions as designers. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

What if we use the term 'developers' rather than programmers, which is restrictive? That way Carmack fits comfortable as we all wish to see.

Like other innovations, games are built on the shoulders of those who come before. The inclusion has to be those who made such a difference, the game would wouldn't be the same without them. For example, if I had to choose only 3, I'd say Crowther/Woods, Carmack, and perhaps the Miller brothers. They changed the world.

If we were too restrictive, I'd have to ditch Scott Adams because while he was briefly important, the game world would have found its way without him. I wasn't a big Sim or Civilization player, so those wouldn't have occurred to me, but they were pivotal.

So, yeah, what kind of rules and how restrictive?

By the way, I appreciate a talk session without people ripping throats out.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, did I rip your throat out? If so, sorry (I'll have to be more careful). You're suggestion about changing it to developers is a good one, but the article is about programmers, not developers (that has an articles of its own). How about this: we change the intro text to:

Several noted game developers began their careers as programmers and eventually gained renown for their contributions to game development. Some of these people include:

That way, we could include people who started out as programmers, but eventually became designers or who were programmers and designers at the same time (pretty common historically, while not currently). The wording could be tweaked somewhat, I'm sure. Thoughts? — Frecklefσσt | Talk 20:11, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

No you didn't rip my throat out! I'd been bloodied recently and I was expressing appreciation that you guys are civilized.

I like your suggestion. I probably blur the line because of having done both. I get the impression you've worked both sides of the fence as well, so you know what I'm talking about.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 23:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I was mainly a game programmer, but consulted on design on two games. The game designer was my friend and we talked often about the design of the games. But being in game development, it's hard not to get sucked into design here and there from time to time. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 01:32, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Based upon our conversation and further consideration, I think I have to give up American McGee. He'd probably rather be known for design anyway.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 02:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Biased paragraph

B44H removed a paragraph I added (actually, it may have been from my original version of the article):

However, there are also some 2-year colleges that offer game development degrees, including "game programming." These "colleges" are notorious for churning out graduates who know little more than how to use a level editor. While not useless information, to be sure, these graduates are taught little in the way of actual programming.

He stated it was biased. While I disagree that it is biased (it is absolutely true), I don't have any source other than my personal experience (e.g. graduates of DigiPen and Full Sail). This, of course, is "original research," which is prohibited on Wikipedia (forgot that little bit when I posted it). Anyone know of any sources (aside from personal experience) that back this up? I think it's valuable information for anyone persuing a career in game programming or those looking to hire programmers. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The statement "graduates are taught little in the way of actual programming" is untrue, speaking from my personal experience regarding DigiPen and Full Sail. I think some of the student-written post-mortems might be enlightening. (Such as [1] or these two which google found: [2], [3].) The question of reputation for such schools is common, which might make it easier to find a source for that angle. --Mrwojo 04:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I can vouch that Full Sail, while extremely expensive, puts a lot into training its students and is a very serious school. I see competing ads for Dave's School, but I have no clue how they compare.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 07:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Experience needed

I added that most employers require bachelors degree in maths, physics, computer science, software engineneering, computer engineering or relevant subject.

If you'll be editing it further, here are some of most usually required experiences(minimum), i didn't really know if i should add them:

JUNIOR PROGRAMMERS:

• 2 years of experience in programming(mostly c++)

"REGULAR" PROGRAMMERS:

• 2 years of experience in gaming industry
• one published game title

SENIOR PROGRAMMERS:

• 5 years of experience in gaming industry
• three published game titles

ALL PROGRAMMERS:(there's always at least one of these)

• good mathemathics ability
• strong problem solving skills
• self-organizational and self motivated
• good time management
• experience in object-oriented programming for all C++ programmers
• the already mentioned Bachelors degree

I.E., graphics programmers mostly need knowledge of 3D math and 3D geometry while game physics programmers need an extensive knowledge of physics etc.

No, you were right to leave it out. I've seen hundreds of postings for game programming jobs and the requirements company by company vary widely. Some require experience on "at least 2 shipped titles," some say a BS is enough. If you're planning to contribute to Wikipedia very much, you should get an account and learn wikimarkup. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's all relative. There are game programmers without degrees who've gained jobs with no previous industry experience. In addition, games companies put heavy emphasis on the requirement of having a passion for games as the highest priority requirement. --JamesTheNumberless 15:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research

I don't know if this article, since it is in a special category, is affected by this rule. Much of this article seems to be original research, or at the least needs a good, hard bat with the needs-to-cite-references stick. I read through a lot of it, and much of it seems accurate, and potentially quite useful. However, that isn't enough, if it is indeed original research, to necessarily include the article in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.110.123 (talk • contribs)

I wrote most of this article back before Wikipedia took a hard stance on citing refs. Yes, to the best of my knowledge, it is accurate. But go ahead apply the stick. — Fгɛςкlɛƒoστ | Talk 18:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Pay

I think that it would be good to include a chart on the basic pay scale for big companies like EA, SuareEnix, and the like. Because i'm unsure of exacally how much they would make in a yearly basis. anyone with me on this? 65.124.8.131 15:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Game Developer publishes charts on this annually. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we're kinda skimping on this section - it implies that the top salaries for actual programmers (as opposed to leads) is in the 98k range - I'm pulling in $130k+bonusses - I'm not a lead and I don't work in California where the salaries are highest - so for sure I'm not at the very top of the scale. The average number only tells you so much because there are typically a lot of junior programmers and far fewer seniors on most projects - which skews the average way down. Someone who sticks with the career can do considerably better - and I think that's something worth reporting. The Game Developer magazine charts are generally considered pretty accurate - so we can easily provide references as needed. SteveBaker (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, which of these Steve Bakers are you? — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

None of them. SteveBaker (talk) 03:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Game development which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 19:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Nix the list of game programmers?

How do other editors feel about just removing the list of game programmers? It's getting too long, it subjective who really is "notable" anymore, many programmers on the list aren't relevant anymore and most of the people on the list are actually noted for their contributions to design, not so much programming; they just happened to program the games they also designed (e.g. Sid Meier, Danielle Bunten Berry, Richard Garriott). Besides, we have a dedicated list they all appear on anyways. The list here is little more than subjective outtakes. Any thoughts, objections? If I don't hear from anyone within a week, I'll go ahead and remove it. Thanks. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 15:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Standard practice when such lists get too long is to make a new article "List of game programmers", move all the content there and let the AfD system handle the decision as to whether it's worth keeping.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The list is too subjective, so remove it per OR. I doubt it will pass AfD as a separate article and will get merged back at best. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:24, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

We do have the List of video game industry people: Programming. It's not a dedicated article, just part of a bigger list. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 00:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I moved the wikilink to the list to "see also" section. It was in a section all by itself, which I felt would invite people to augment the section (which we don't want). It's still there, just in a better location. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 17:03, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Multiple issues

I removed the "multiple issues" notice on the article page. This article isn't a disaster as the notice implies. It needs more refs, true, but so do most articles. Any further issues can be brought up here without tagging the main article. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 17:06, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

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