Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
Professional wrestling as a whole is under general sanctions
Welcome to the WikiProject Professional wrestling discussion page. Please use this page to discuss issues regarding professional wrestling related articles, project guidelines, ideas, suggestions and questions. Thank you for visiting!

For weekly wrestling shows, subsections listing every single combination of announce team need to be deleted

Subsections such as AEW Dynamite#Commentators and WWE NXT#Commentators or indeed entire articles such as List of WWE Raw on-air personalities are ridiculous. First and foremost, they're almost entirely uncited. Secondly, they unwieldy monsters that add massively to the length of the article without adding useful information. Thirdly, they're pretty much just Fancruft. Do Wikipedia readers really need to know that Chris Jericho once commentated alongside Jim Ross and Excalibur on the second hour of the July 15, 2020 edition of Dynamite? Or that out of 100s and 100s of episodes of WWE RAW it was twice announced by Jim Ross and Todd Grisham?

I need this things need to be completely culled and articles such as List of WWE Raw on-air personalities put up for deletion. CeltBrowne (talk) 21:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I have been thinking the same long time ago. I have no problem with regular commentators, like Ross Lawler, Tazz Styles or Tenay West. But its fancruft to include every single combination of the commentators, many of them being a one time deal. Dynamite is just 5 years old but has 22 combimations.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. There are also pointless articles like Secondary championships in All Elite Wrestling. Random and non-notable stables/tag teams should be redirected too. While such contributions could be considered as WP:GOODFAITH, but they are actually bloat and fancruft material (harming the quality and encyclopediac tone of our project). --Mann Mann (talk) 05:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Since no-one objects, I go ahead now and begin removing these. CeltBrowne (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I have long agreed with this and culled pointless one-offs many times. It's mostly one editor that keeps adding these. Listing the regular announce teams is one thing. Week-by-week breakdowns is stupid. oknazevad (talk) 00:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

PS, circumventing this consensus, List of WWE NXT on-air personalities was created to include the exact same trivial fancruft. oknazevad (talk) 01:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, I've now put all three of these WWE lists up for deletion over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of WWE NXT on-air personalities CeltBrowne (talk) 01:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Liv Morgan#Was she born in Paramus or Morristown?

Input from experienced project members would be welcome in the discussion at Talk:Liv Morgan#Was she born in Paramus or Morristown?. The IP 102.67.77.171 returned after its IP range 102.67.76.0/22 block has been expired. AmritR012 (talk) 00:58, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Commons mass DR has been closed...

...as I'm sure you've noticed from the Commons Delinker edits in your watchlist. What was learned? For one, the Apter mags with cover dates ranging from August 1973 to October 1987 are all in the public domain. From the previous smaller DR of last year, we learned that Wrestling's Main Event is largely in the public domain (I don't know when they discontinued that mag, but there's the Berne Convention cut-off date of March 1, 1989 to take into consideration). Is this resource something we want to publicize as a project? It seems those who have uploaded photos have done so for very specific reasons, and yet still there's lots of fertile ground to till, given the known extent of what's PD. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 00:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Is this resource something we want to publicize as a project?

Did you have something in mind?

As far as I go, I've been thinking that it might be worth requesting a custom upload template for PWI and Main Event on Commons:Village pump/Copyright. CeltBrowne (talk) 00:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

In the time since I first posted, I've been poking around. Dick Beyer is now unillustrated. Internet Archive has a 1963 issue of Wrestling World with photos of Beyer as the Destroyer. The existing copyright renewal databases are oriented towards books, so determining the copyright status of periodicals could be tricky. Offhand, it appears the copyright wasn't renewed, but you shouldn't go by guesswork if we're supposed to take copyright seriously. The other thing on my plate: since we now know that certain publications are PD, there should be more of an effort to provide coverage of specific historical events, not just specific personalities. As for what I think you're getting at, project space exists to educate project members on what resources are available to them, so a mention should be made somewhere. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I haven't had time to research which articles need to be re-illustrated as a result. I just sent the Pro Wrestling Illustrated infobox cover to WP:FFD. Since that's more timely and of perhaps greater importance to the project overall, I thought I would leave notice here. See Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 September 8#File:Pro Wrestling Illustrated March 2014 cover.gif. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 19:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Mickie James

Mickie James has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (trout me!) 03:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Deletion of Gringo Loco

Gringo Loco has been nominated for deletion, I feel this is a strange one as he's clearly notable on the Independent scene, having televised matches on All Elite Wrestling a few times, and even having an annual GCW PPV event named after him, can anyone help join the discussion and give some input/assistance. Thief-River-Faller (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Professional wrestlers who competed in MMA

Can anyone please add Category:Professional wrestlers who competed in MMA to the wrestlers from this article MMA records of professional wrestlers who haven't been added yet. Davidgoodheart (talk) 14:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"Associates" in stable/faction articles

I'd like to propose that we do away with "associate" fields in stable and faction articles. This would include tables under members, fields in timelines, or describing people as associates. Here is my reasoning:

• First and most importantly, it is usually WP:OR and is rarely adequately sourced. Most of the time it depends on personal opinion or interpretation. If one person is seen hanging around with another faction more than once then people try to add them as an "associate".
• On that note, sourcing is near impossible because "associate" appears to be a term that only really exists on Wikipedia. The vast majority of sources don't describe allies of a faction as "associates", but might use some other vague descriptor, which is what leads to the OR mentioned above.
• Next, it isn't encyclopedic. Either they are a member or they are not. If they are not, why are we including them? Any storyline 'association' can be mentioned in the article body. Friends of friends shouldn't be listed under 'members', because they ultimately are not. It's WP:FANCRUFT.
• It leads to edit wars. The endless arguments about who is or isn't an associate of a faction, which seems to be getting worse as the wrestling industry is more faction heavy than it's perhaps ever been, is ultimately disruptive to the project.

For these reasons I think we should prohibit this being a standard part of stable articles. If agreed, I'm happy to do the legwork myself in cleaning up existing articles. — Czello ^(music) 20:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Czello. The associates section it's hard to source and I don't see any kind of enciclopedic value. That's how pro wrestling works, wrestlers work with wrestlers. Also, most Ips include every wrestler who, at some point, appears with the stable. (do you remember Drew McIntyre as Judgment Day's associate or Nikki Cross as DMG Control's associate? I remember back in my day, Great Khali and Boogeyman were DX's associates because they did the Suck it gesture.) --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking to get more input here, @Mann Mann: @RadioKAOS: @CeltBrowne: — Czello ^(music) 07:55, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, remove them. While it's not a 1:1 situation, an "associated acts" parameter was removed from Template:Infobox musical artist a couple years ago for similar reasons (see that discussion here). These "associate" listings are simply not worth the trouble they cause, nor do they add much to begin with. If an association is truly notable, then it will more appropriately be contextualized in the body of the article. Prefall 08:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I think Czello makes good points, however, to play Devil's advocate, sometimes there very clearly is some kind of "Second tier" level of membership in a wrestling faction. To pick a current example, I would in fact say that Pac and Marina Shafir are "associates" of the Blackpool Combat Club, to the point where I would deem them "de facto" members. AEW has not "officially" placed them in the stable, but for plot purposes, they're quite clearly in at this point. I don't think it's "wrong" of users to highlight that these people are associated with the faction and are interwoven into the plot.

I think to say sourcing is "impossible" is probably overstating it. While wrestling sources are unlikely to use the exact term "associate", I'm sure there are sources who use language indicating that a wrestler is attached to a faction without being declared a member. To use a historic example; I'm sure we can get sources discussing how Disco Inferno was "kinda" a member of the nWo Wolfpac, but not "offically".

I know making these points makes coming to a consensus more difficult, but I feel they do have to be pointed out. CeltBrowne (talk) 08:24, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I think there will always be special cases where someone deserves a mention (perhaps like Sami in the Bloodline), but I think there would have to be good justification for inclusion rather than it being the default.

I'm sure there are sources who use language indicating that a wrestler is attached to a faction without being declared a member This is where we get into the WP:OR argument, however, as users are going to need to make interpretations of what language actually means what we call an 'associate'. I think if they're in this grey area then they're not ultimately not a member, but would still get mentioned in the article body. — Czello ^(music) 13:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know about the music argument. Good call. The main issue are IPs and good faith editors who include every wrestler who, at some point, has some connection, storyline or match with the stable. Associates, Honorary, part time, unoficial... BTW, I don't understand the "honorary Uso" thing. For me, Zayn it's clearly a member of the Bloodline, the honorary title it's kayfabe since he isn't part of the Anoa'i family.

Same as Prefall. I add this: Sub-groups need similar concerns. For example, take a look at Damage CTRL#Sub-groups. The Sky Pirates was used in NXT. Sane and Shirai (Sky) used that name until 2019. And they became Sky Pirates again just because they are in a same stable/group?! It is just WP:OR/SYNTH material. --Mann Mann (talk) 13:56, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

.We can start another discussion. I think things like [1] and other Japanese factions are a field for WP:FANCRUFT. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Our continued detachment from reality in by-year articles

Found in 1952 in professional wrestling:

==List of notable promotions==
Only one promotion held notable shows in 1952.

Promotion Name	Abbreviation
Empresa Mexicana de Lucha Libre	EMLL

Found in the very first hit of a perfunctory Google search:

On May 21, 1952 Baron Michele Leone made wrestling history, when he lost the Olympic version of the world title to Lou Thesz at Gilmore Field in Los Angeles, unifying it with the NWA world title. The event drew 25,256 fans, which is still to this date the second largest crowd to watch a wrestling event in Southern California history, and took $103,277.75 at the gate, pro-wrestling’s first gate of over $100,000.00.

So tell me, how are we defining "notable", and how is doing so helping with readers' understanding of the topic? RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:36, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the term "notable" was probably introduced to the format of these pages so that for more recent pages, random IP editors would be discouraged from adding every single event of the year to the article. I'm sure in the case of much older articles, the term "notable" is not there to gatekeep events like the LA one you referenced. I'm sure no one would object to the inclusion of the LA show as a notable 1952 event. CeltBrowne (talk) 08:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Jewish background of Madusa and Victoria

Are Madusa and Victoria Jew? I don't see anything about that claim on their articles, but Jeiwsh-related categories are linked. We better review and verify List of Jewish professional wrestlers. There could be BLP violation and unsourced claims. --Mann Mann (talk) 06:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I dislike greatly on any BLP page when someone is categorised into an ethnicity/nationality, but there's no mention of their membership in that ethnicity/nationality in the article. American BLP pages are rife with claims of being "Irish-American" or various other European descendent without any evidence. For example I just recently had to reduce 8 claimed ethnicities for David Arquette down to 3 in this edit upon actually looking up the evidence/sources.

That said, a quick google search for Lisa Marie Varon shows that she is Jewish:

• Times of Israel source
• Twitter source (Just about fine because of WP:ABOUTSELF.)
• LA Times Source
• Huff Po UK source (although it's a bit iffy)

I'm having a harder time sourcing anything for Madusa CeltBrowne (talk) 08:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

There are two issues: Many wrestlers or wrestling personalities do not correct/confirm such info about their identity and real life stuff, and it is not limited to their ethnicity or religion. Age (exact birth date) and legal/real name (especially for married women) could suffer from the very same OR/unsourced problems. Another issue is that such content could be legit but they were added by IP-users or inexperienced users who forgot to add sources. And the scenario becomes worse when the missing sources are non-English. I will remove Jewish from Madusa article. Feel free to re-add them if you find a source. --Mann Mann (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)