Talk:Holocaust denial

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Important: In order to save editors from repeatedly answering questions which have already been asked, as well saving you the time from asking them, it is strongly recommended that you view the following FAQ section, which contains responses that represent editorial consensus on the following issues which have frequently arisen on the Holocaust denial talk page. In addition, the links given to related archived discussions are not necessarily exhaustive, and it is recommended that you use the search tool as well.

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1: Holocaust denial is not necessarily antisemitic.

Response: One item that has been raised here several times is the contention that Holocaust denial is not inherently antisemitic, and/or that Wikipedia should not conclude that everyone who is a Holocaust denier harbors antisemitic feelings.

Wikipedia is not here to conclude that, and its editors' opinion on the matter - whatever those opinions are and regardless of who they belong to - are irrelevant. Wikipedia is here to present what reliable sources say. In this case, there is a preponderance of reliable material stating that Holocaust denial is antisemitic, and therefore the article notes that Holocaust denial is considered to be antisemitic, and why the antisemitism template is legitimately included.

Related archived discussion: [1], [2].

2: The antisemitism template should be removed.

Response: Please see the response to Item 1 as to why the antisemitism template is legitimately placed.

3: Holocaust denial should be renamed Holocaust revisionism

Response: No. Per numerous reliable sources, the correct terminology is Holocaust denial/denier.

Related archived discussion: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8].

4: Not all historians reject Holocaust denial.

Response: Yes, they do. As is already stated in the article, according to the oldest and largest American association of historians and history teachers, "no serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place", and that Holocaust denial is a form of "academic fraud". Wikipedia must avoid using vague or unspecific terms, and words which do not accuractely reflect what reliable sources say.

Related archived discussion: [9], [10].

5: The 4 million Auschwitz plaque

Response: One issue relates to the death toll plaque at Auschwitz, which was amended following the collapse of the Soviet Union to read 1.5 million Jewish deaths, instead of 4 million victims of no specified ethnicity or background.

The Soviet authorities estimated the death toll not via historical methodology, but by working out how many people could have been cremated during the entire existence of the camp, taking 20% off to account for crematoria down-time, and using that number: around 4 million. They did not, for example, examine how many people were sent to the camp versus how many did not return, but used the 4 million variant to purposely overstate non-Jewish deaths, and diminish the fact that 90% of those that disappeared following their deportation to Auschwitz were Jewish. Once the Iron Curtain fell, communist pressure to keep the original Soviet estimate ceased and the more accurate estimate replaced it.

In any event, reputable historians did not use the 4 million figure in their calculations of the overall number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Rather, they used numbers of 1 to 1.5 million, figures which are still used today.

Related archived discussion/items: [11], [12], [13] and the appropriate section in the Auschwitz article.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Holocaust denial. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Holocaust denial at the Reference desk.

Holocaust denial was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 6, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 11, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
December 27, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
July 5, 2007	Good article reassessment	Kept
July 15, 2008	Good article reassessment	Kept
June 6, 2020	Good article reassessment	Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents Holocaust denial in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of it is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View (WP:NPOV) policy. The sections of the policy that apply directly to this article are:

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Soft Holocaust Denial should be added?

https://www.thetower.org/article/the-rise-of-soft-holocaust-denial/ The matter with JK Rowling because the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_Nazi_Germany points here, but this article doesn't mention Rromani, LGBT, who were part of the Holocaust, even though they were not the most public. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/deborah-lipstadt-historian-donald-trump-advisers-soft-holocaust-denial There are plenty of articles to support it. There are examples that can be pulled too. Addressing the arguments that it's more prevalent v. hard denial should also be addressed and added. --KimYunmi (talk) 14:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KimYunmi Maybe first try creating an article about this (soft Holocaust denial, I guess)? Is this term used in academia? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article here is too long to add the soft denial, I think to add the soft part, though I think an insertion of "soft denial" as a header would still be wise, rather than an addendum. There seems to be enough articles to support making it, but I have to admit I don't particularly want to do it alone. KimYunmi (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2024

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My suggestion is to add an additional section for the middle east category to include Israel. In 2015, Benjamin Net. voiced his opinion that Palestinian leaders persuaded the Nazis to commence the holocaust. This denial denigrates the Nazi decision to carry out the mass killing and is a way to condemn Palestinians today.

From BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563

From AP news https://apnews.com/general-news-61ead35a427a408e9d93d43f41cfa064 71.229.52.174 (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are good, though it can be argued to be not exactly "denial". A sentence like "Historians said that Israeli PM BN served the interests of HD-ers when he claimed in 2015 that..." is not unreasonable IMO. I note that this thing is well covered in Benjamin Netanyahu. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As in mentioned in the intro as part of holocaust denialism, "Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.", Which even without an explicit comment from a historian or commentator from the articles stating that is in explicit service fellow HD-ers, it matches the definition as provided in the intro. Thank you for taking the time to review this proposal. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 20:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point, per the WP-article's definition, this does seem like a version of HD. I've WP:APPNOTEd in a couple of places, we'll see if other editors can be arsed to have an opinion. For the interested, the coverage in the BN-article is at Benjamin_Netanyahu#Fourth_term. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there is Under-fire Netanyahu criticised over 'a form of Holocaust denial', Irish Independent, 2015, [14], [15], etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to suggest adding the following under the middle east section.

=== Israel ===

Israel's Prim Minister, Mr Netanyahu, at a speech to the World Zionist Congress in 2015, insisted Adolf Hitler did not want to exterminate jews but had only wanted to expel them from Europe due too the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini request. This has been seen as a means to reduce Hitler's responsibility for the Holocaust by Angela Merkel and chief Israel Holocaust Historian, Yad Vashem. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Germany

In the German section, the terminology of "Volksverhetzung" is explained and translated twice in mostly the same way. I think it should be possible to remove one of those (preferrably the second one) to make for more fluent reading. --131Platypi (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks. JimRenge (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]