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There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 Congress of Berlin. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, Six Vilayets, follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.73.173.64.115 (talk) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
Nowhere on p. xiv (a page figuring in ref. 6) under the subtitle "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire", does Suny (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else) say or suggest anything remotely resembling to “The presence of Armenians in Anatolia has been documented since the sixth century BCE, about 1,500 years before the arrival of Turkmens under the Seljuk dynasty”. In fact, on that page Suny discusses Bernard Lewis’ balderdash about the heart of the Turkish homeland being in Anatolia contrary to the historical truth that the Turks’ homeland is in Central Asia.73.173.64.115 (talk) 13:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
In the Background section, under the subtitle “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, first sentence of the second para. states that “[…] Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million”. This clause is supported by only one lousy reference, ref. 12, although two other equally Reliable Sources, Kévorkian and Akcam, containing different significant views on the same subject, have been brought to editors’ attention but had never been added as they must have been according to WP:CONFLICTING. Ref. 12 refers to Suny, 2015 (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else), p. xviii. This is what this author, whom the editors, I have no doubt, have chosen because it contains their all-time favorite language “Anatolia” as opposed to Kévorkian and Akcam who do not use that absurd term (in relation to Armenians) and who are, again, as reliable as Suny and thus must be included as source of significant other views, writes on p. xviii: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia [whose] population estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants.” Compare this original sentence with what the editors of this article have cobbled up: “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million.” But, dearest editors, don’t you see that Suny uses “lands” and not “territory” and that he clearly refers to “eastern Anatolia” and not the load of crap “mostly in Anatolia”? And not just in eastern Anatolia, but in the six provinces of it, which I believe you know well were widely known as Six Armenian Vilayets? What’s the point of distorting, so unceremoniously, the words of an RS author? And in case some editor pops up here telling me from his or her high horse that there is no difference between “land” and “territory”, well, sorry to disappoint, there is an essential difference. Land is central to the identities and ways of life of indigenous peoples, such as the Armenians. Whereas territory is an area of land under the jurisdiction of a ruler or state.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
I want to make sure I understand. Among other things, you're saying that Suny, when he refers to "between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants" is referring to the Six Vilayets, and not all of Anatolia? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suny breaks it into two separate sentences, whereas in your article they are combined into one. Thus the confusion. This is what Suny writes: "Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia. [FULL STOP] In an Anatolian population estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants, [...]". So, as you can see, only the second sentence refers to the population of all of Anatolia. Whereas the first one outlines the place of habitat of the Armenians. According to Suny (and he is not the only RS and not the only significant view as I hope I've shown), "Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, [...] in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia." Again, this is only one of a few significant views. Kévorkian and Akcam offer significant other views (see above) and according to WP:CONFLICTINGMUST be added in the sentence in order to maintain a neutral point of view. This is not about bad faith or good faith. This is about following your own Wikipedia policies.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
I read the article sentence as also saying that the 15–17.5 million applies to all of Anatolia, so it's in line with Suny. If others think confusion is likely, we could change to "... mostly in Anatolia. The region had a total population of 15-17.5 million." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to understand why and how the total population of all of Anatolia (15-17.5 million), mentioned in Suny as a separate sentence, can be linked or is in any way related to where the Armenians lived? If you feel it is so necessary to mention the population of all of Anatolia, you may want to compose a separate sentence for that. But please don’t involve Armenians in this unrelated landmass, because the prevailing majority of them lived outside of Anatolia. Am I not making myself understood? Suny calls their habitat “six provinces of eastern Anatolia”, Akcam “eastern provinces of Turkey (an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia)”, Kévorkian “the Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets”. What is common in all of these equally reliable sources is “eastern provinces”. This can be easily combined into one sentence that would represent all three significant views, for example: “two million Armenians lived in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia, an area that is known as historic or Western Armenia or the Armenian high plateau”. And then you add references to each of these geographic terms from Suny, Akcam, and Kévorkian. WP:CONFLICTING is thus observed and everyone is happy.73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
“CUP regrouped as Turkish nationalists” is hypocrisy, the Turkish nationalists literally fought against the CUP…
What you wrote is not really true and the sources that say so are decades out of date. This was Zürcher's big contribution and now most historians changed their view (t · c) buidhe10:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You've got it backwards. The CUP as an organization didn't outlast World War I, but most of the leading figures in the Turkish Nationalist movement were ex-CUP. If you doubt me, there are literally three sources cited in the article, I would recommend checking them out. (t · c) buidhe20:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand there are Wikipedia editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Wikipedia’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Wikipedia community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
As an uninvolved administrator... I'm not sure what sort of intervention you're looking for here. To be clear, administrators also do not have the final call on content decisions, as they are instead determined by a consensus of all editors. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't remember that there has ever been a consensus on this Talk page re: the number of Armenians killed, Armenian total population numbers, and the name of historical Armenian habitat. The author's and editors' highhandedness must therefore be reported and an administrative sanction imposed. Will look into Wikipedia:Administrators for that. Thanks again.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian[reply]
Akçam, Taner (2023). "The Armenian Genocide: An Overview". The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020. Cambridge University Press. pp. 67–92. ISBN978-1-108-76711-8.
Akçam, Taner (2024). "Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of "Accumulated Experience"". Journal of Genocide Research. 26 (2): 121–141. doi:10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488.
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