Jump to content

Talk:Hussein of Jordan

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good articleHussein of Jordan has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 6, 2018Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 16, 2018.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Hussein (pictured) started his 46-year reign as King of Jordan in 1952 when he was a 17-year-old schoolboy?
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on August 11, 2018, August 11, 2021, and August 11, 2022.

2010 POV dispute

[edit]

The article, especially the intro, looks like it was written by a pro-Hussein propagandist. The intro is filled with poorly referenced propaganda. Also, sections in which he should appear less than perfect to a pro-democracy Westerner, such as should be found in the Six-Day War, Black September, and The Gulf War sections, is minimal. Also, the article focuses on relatively unimportant. Hussein was the de facto and de juro king of an important country of six million citizens for 63 years, yet the half the article is about his personal life, family, and death. I'll help try to fix this.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 05:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC) Well, there have been some corrections made, but if anything the history of King Hussein's reign now reads as if written from a very particular political POV. The reference to Black September suggests he called the US and Israel on the phone and agreed to throw the Palestinians out. The link to the main article is there, but the summary omits the reasons for conflict between several Communist Palestinian groups and a nearly absolute monarchy.EclecticGeek (talk) 01:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just completed a major edit of this article to get it to standards. I removed much of the unencyclopedic material and controversial claims. I removed most of his speeches, only noting that he made them (if they were notable) and added qualifiers to other claims. Although it is still not a very good article, I think it should be an improvement. If anyone feels that these edits were unfair feel free to revert and we can discuss. But as I noted before, I think it is better now than it was before. Poyani (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Talal of Jordan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 17:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

'President Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt often referred to Hussein as "an "imperialist lackey".'

[edit]

There is even a pretty little footnote given linking an article to cite this statement. Except that the article on the other end of the link says nothing of the kind. It is a reference to an article about Nasser and Hussein meeting to sign their treaty prior to the Six Day War. Nasser is quoted saying a couple of things, but the words "imperialist lackey" aren't there. This should be marked "citation needed" at least, and removed if an accurate citation is not provided in support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EclecticGeek (talk • contribs) 01:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just did a quick google search and this source came up. Feel free to add it. Although, instead of "had often referred to" it should probably say "had previously referred to". Poyani (talk) 21:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:KingHussain.JPG Nominated for Deletion

[edit]
An image used in this article, File:KingHussain.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 4 August 2011
What should I do?
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:01, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Black September

[edit]

Right now there is a link to the main article on the topic and not a very good summary, ending in a sentence fragment. A better (and hopefully unbiased) short summary needs to be written. Sergivs-en (talk) 07:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

HM King Hussein of Jordan did receive the highest Dansh order "The Order of The Elephant" on the 27th of April 1998.

[edit]

In April 1998 HM King Hussein visited Denmark. On the 27th of April 1998 HM King Hussein of Jordan did receive the highest Dansh order "The Order of The Elephant". The order is given almost exclusively to heads of state and to members of royal familes related to the Dansk Rpyal family. Exceptins were Winston Churchil, General Mongommery and General Eisenhower who all received the order at the end of the second world war. Four non-royal Danes have received the order: The language scientist Vilhelm Thomsen (1912), the founder of the Danish East Asiatic Company H. N. Andersen (1919), the nuclear scientist and Nobel Prize winner Niels Bohr (1947) and Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller (2000). Reference: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefantordenen Peter Henrik Horsten Copenhagen, Denmark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.211.114 (talk) 23:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

King Hussein and the 1990-1991 Gulf War

[edit]

There is a notable gap in this article for the 1990-1991 Gulf War. This would be a valuable addition to the King's biography, and helpful for the lay scholar.76.92.141.104 (talk) 03:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Hussein of Jordan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:36, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Hussein of Jordan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Descent from Muhammad

[edit]

The descent from Muhammad itself does not confer any special status. It has recently been noted that the Queen of the United Kingdom is a descendant but that is hardly news since every European is descended from Muhammad. What entitled Hussein's ancestors to the Meccan Sharifate and gave political legitimacy to his regime was his agnatic descent from Muhammad's daughter, i.e. the status of sayyid. That's what sets his descent apart from that of millions of other. Surtsicna (talk) 21:29, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Surtsicna: How and why on earth do you think Europeans are deacended from Muhammad?! Again, I am using the terminology present in most sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's simple mathematics: "everyone of European ancestry must descend from Muhammad." The man lived 14 centuries ago and his immediate descendants were quite prolific. Similarly we are all descended from Charlemagne.[1][2] There are sources that specify that Hussein was a male-line descendant of Muhammad's daughter (eg. [3]). It would not hurt to be more precise. Surtsicna (talk) 22:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Surtsicna: Ok, I now see what you meant. Lets leave this bit away from the lede, I restored the rest. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Surtsicna: It's the direct male lineage that matters. According to traditional genealogy, they are direct descendants of Muhammad's daughter and Ali. Also, his direct ancestors were the rulers of Hijaz, the region that includes Mecca and Medina. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And that is exactly what I wrote. Surtsicna (talk) 10:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bad source

[edit]
@GHcool: How about we refrain from using an Israeli think tank as a reliable source? What does majority even mean? 90%? 51%? Makeandtoss (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but the Begin–Sadat Center for Strategic Studies is a reliable source. You give no legitimate reason why we shouldn't consider it reliable. The fact that it is based in Israel is irrelevant for several reasons:
  1. The geographic location of a source does not impact a source's reliability. To argue otherwise is distasteful to say the least.
  2. The think tank was founded by a Canadian and has an international staff.
  3. The author of the article is a Jordanian.
  4. We cite Israelis throughout the article. --GHcool (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maiden

[edit]

It should be noted that Hussein underwrote the voyage of the Maiden during the 1989-1990 Whitbread Round the World Race, skippered by Tracy Edwards whom he'd met years before. Without his funding via Jordan Airlines the trip would not have happened.

How many wars with Israel?

[edit]

"Jordan fought three wars with Israel under Hussein, including the 1967 Six-Day War, ..."

I'm not aware of any war other than the 1967 one that Jordan actually fought with (or rather against) Israel. Laugh Tough (talk) 05:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

War of Attrition and Yom Kippor. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 May 2023

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) SilverLocust (talk) 00:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hussein of Jordan → Hussein, King of Jordan – Per WP:PRECISION "Hussein of Jordan" could also refer to his grandson, Hussein, Crown Prince of Jordan and pageviews analysis demonstrates this as the two are relatively close in pageviews and the latter surpasses the former on occasion. [4]

WP:NCROY permits both forms "X of Y" or "X, King/Queen of Y" to be used, so that guideline is neutral on this matter. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 10:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisted per consensus at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2023 May. The previous close was: "Moved to King Hussein. WP:BARTENDER." Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment / Note to closer - this has been relisted following a move review, but a reminder of the ngram evidence I presented above - [6] - we can see from this that "King Hussein" is overwhelmingly the WP:COMMONNAME, with maybe five times as many usages as the next nearest contender, which is "King Hussein of Jordan". The other two options on the table, "Hussein of Jordan" (the status quo) and "Hussein, King of Jordan" barely register at all in book sources (we can see that "Hussein of Jordan by itself isn't used, because its ngram runs entirely neck-and-neck with the longer "King Hussein of Jordan", while the proposed namd is rock bottom with four orders of magnitude fewer usages than the next contender). There is simply no usage whatsoever for the proposed or existing name, and the decision comes down to two options only - "King Hussein" or "King Hussein of Jordan". Naming conventions can't override the policy at WP:COMMONNAME when the evidence of actual real-world usage is this overwhelming.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    King Hussein is a very bad idea, because it ambiguously can refer to Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz - a figure noted in the move review, and partially accounting for those Ngrams results, including all of the results prior to the 1950s. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, as you'll see if you follow the link, King Hussein is already a redirect to this title, so the question of primary topic is already established. There is no need to give it a more awkward title given that scenario. The page view lead is fairly convincing too. Anyway, as I say, King Hussein of Jordan might be a plausible second choice, it's mainly the other two proposed titles which are not compliant with the policy.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Both King Hussein of Jordan and plain King Hussein are violations of WP:NCROY, which is part of WP:CONSISTENCY, a policy just as much as common name. estar8806 (talk) ★ 12:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've told you repeatedly, COMMONNAME is an overarching policy which supersedes any of the individual criteria listed at WP:AT. The wording reads: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above. When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly". In this case, however, there is an "obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources", or perhaps two such - "King Hussein" and "King Hussein of Jordan"; it's not even close. Your proposed name, which barely any sources use, merely to satisfy a guideline that has lots of exceptions already, is a clear violation of the naming policy.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "King Hussein" is too vague because there is another king with that name. This is an encyclopedia and we should not give preferential treatment to certain individuals. Yes, it redirects to this page just like Queen Adelaide that redirects to Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen. That doesn't mean that Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen's page should be at "Queen Adelaide" as there were other queens with that name and it would go against WP:NCROY. "King Hussein of Jordan" also goes against WP:SOVEREIGN. I cannot find any pages on any monarchs from any countries that is titled this way. Keivan.fTalk 15:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: WP:SOVEREIGN (4.) supports the format "Name, title of country" absent an ordinal, but the current title is already perfectly recognizable, not realistically ambiguous and far more common than the proposed, and the potential confusion with the crown prince is extremely minor: very few people are going to think this is his son, and, if he is crowned, it will become Hussein I and Hussein II. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
very few people are going to think this is his son I think you mean his grandson, right? Because his son and the current monarch is Abdullah II. Just asking for the sake of clarification. Keivan.fTalk 20:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my bad. Just re-read it and was going to correct it, but then saw you'd posted this. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral re: the proposal, but strong oppose King Hussein, which violates normal rules about avoiding starting titles with honorifics and has recognizability issues. That you can use "King Hussein" in running text (as per ngrams) is neither here nor there. That kind of approach would lead to lopping off a lot of first names from biographical articles. Srnec (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose current naming convention follows WP:SOVEREIGN for monarchs, I see no reason to change it now, especially as there is King Hussein of the Hejaz. Crown prince Hussein isn't a monarch, and when he becomes one, he will be Hussein II, so there is no room for confusion, similar to Abdullah I of Jordan and Abdullah II of Jordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Jordan has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Hussein de Jordanie" listed at Redirects for discussion

[edit]

The redirect Hussein de Jordanie has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 16 § Hussein de Jordanie until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 November 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Consensus based on consistency, conciseness. FOARP (talk) 17:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC) FOARP (talk) 17:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hussein of Jordan → Hussein, King of Jordan – It's been over a year since the last discussion so I think it's time to revisit this.

First of all, the current title fails WP:PRECISE by presuming this article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. While that may be true by long-term significance, pageviews tell a different story [7], and we are supposed to consider both when judging a primary topic.

Additionally, last time around King Hussein was proposed as a reasonable alternative, but that also fails WP:PRECISE as there is another king known by the name of Hussein, Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz, who's long-term significance is not negligible. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose as the relevant guideline here is WP:SOVEREIGN: "Article titles are not normally prefixed with "King", "Queen", "Emperor" or equivalent."
Crown Prince Hussein is irrelevant since he is still not a sovereign monarch. Even if he was, this wouldn't change anything; we have Abdullah I of Jordan and Abdullah II of Jordan per WP's naming conventions. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Technically the nominator is not proposing 'prefixing' the name with the title 'King'; that would have been the case if the proposed name was 'King Hussein of Jordan'. Also I don't see any violations of WP:SOVEREIGN which incidentally states Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when it was in official use, as with Juan Carlos I (not Juan Carlos, King of Spain). When there is no ordinal, the formats John of Bohemia and Joanna of Castile or Stephen, King of England and Anne, Queen of Great Britain are used. So the format proposed is valid. The question is whether it's more common than 'Hussein of Jordan'. Keivan.fTalk 17:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. A quick google search reveals this is not the case. Hussein of Jordan is much more commonly used than Hussein, king of Jordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the problem. Obviously the shorter name is more common. The problem is it's ambiguous. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ambiguous how? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the nomination? estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hussein of Jordan has nothing to do with Hussein of Hejaz. Crown Prince Hussein of Jordan is not a monarch so there is no confusion. There is nothing ambiguous about this. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except the name "Hussein of Jordan" in no way implies that the elder Hussein was a monarch. The crown prince is also "Hussein of Jordan". estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hussein of Jordan is a specific type of naming that is used for monarchs as WP:SOVEREIGN mentions, so the crown prince is not that name. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's not used exclusively for monarchs, see Hildegard of Bingen and most queens consort like Alexandra of Denmark or Sophia of Prussia. It's also not the only form permitted by SOVEREIGN, see Anne, Queen of Great Britain and John, King of England, etc. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More of a common name than policy issue. Again, the other format is policy compliant but not commonly used. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hussein_of_Jordan&oldid=1256590324"